Recorded on the Turks & Caicos Islands in February 2020, Smith / Kotzen sees Iron Maiden’s Adrian Smith team with The Winery Dogs’ Richie Kotzen for a set of modern, hooky blues rock. A consummate collaboration between these two highly respected musicians, the pair share lead vocals and trade off on guitar and bass duties throughout the record, to fabulous effect. We sat down with Richie for a chat about the making of the album, delve into his guitar collection, and find out what’s happening with The Winery Dogs. Taking chances; Eamon O’Neill.
Photo: Press.
Hi Richie, how are you today?
Yeah, I’m very good. I’m in Los Angeles county out by Malibu, out by the beach.
Congratulations on the Smith / Kotzen album; it really shows off what both of you are capable of, doesn’t it?
Yeah. You know, going into it, it was interesting. We had to spend a little bit of time jamming together over the course of a few years here and there, so I had a pretty strong picture of Adrian’s taste, and what he sounded like, what his singing was like, and that sort of thing. So once we got in the room to write it was pretty easy, to be honest with you. There was a real, natural flow that we got going.
How did those jam sessions move from being just something to do for fun, to something that you thought might be worth pursuing seriously?
Well, the first song that we actually developed was the song ‘Running’, and I think at that point I thought; “alright, well there’s something going on here”. But you know, when we did ‘Scars’, which I think was the second number we put together, at that point I thought, you know, we’ve really got something kind of special. We had a vibe. It’s powerful to have two guys that can sing and compliment each other. I remember, one of the records that I liked growing up was that ‘Stormbringer’ [Deep Purple] record that had Coverdale singing on it and then Glenn Hughes singing as well, and it’s tricky to have two singers, but they did it so well back then, and I feel like with Adrian and I - not to put ourselves in their league by any means - but I think that we actually hit on something real nice, where our vocals kind of blend well together.
And of course, your guitar playing also work well together too.
That could have a disaster, you know, when you’ve got two guys that play lead. We were able to make room for each other, and I think we’ve been doing it long enough that we’re able to listen and respond, as opposed to feeling like we’re two young guys that are trying to represent ourselves. I don’t think we have that; it’s about the song, and what did we write, and let’s deliver it.
It’s been a long time since we heard Adrian Smith sing on an album; how were you able to coax him back into doing that?
Well, I didn’t have to do any coaxing of any kind. You know, out of the gate he wanted to sing, and like I said, we had those jam sessions, where he would sing quite a bit, so he wanted to express his song writing and his melodies, and what have you, so there was never anything else. No one had to convince anybody of anything; it just kind of was a given that we would do a co-lead vocal. That was the only thing that we actually planned. People ask sometimes; “how did you decide the direction?”, but we really didn’t decide anything, we didn’t plan anything, it just was more reactionary, and we wrote these songs, and that led us down this path, and dictated, actually, the sound of the record. It was just the compositions that we wrote, dictated the direction of the album.
Something that is interesting about the album is that you’ve never collaborated with another guitarist, and when Adrian does solo projects, he’s always been the sole guitarist too.
Well, that’s right. It’s a good point. You know, I have a long history of making records where I’m the only guitar player, whereas Adrian is part of Maiden, where there’s more than one guitar player. Now, I really noticed that some of his production instincts were really influenced by the fact that he’s had so many years playing with another guitar player. So, by example, I think his counterpoint, and his sense of melody is so strong. We have these songs like ‘Taking My Chances’, and in my mind I’d think; “okay, I think they’re finished now”, and he’d say; “wait, I’ve got one more idea”, and he’d come up with a great counterpoint kind of thing to go against what I did. That’s really powerful, and I have to assume that really comes out of that long history of playing in a band, and with other guitar players and that sort of thing.
Yeah, I’m very good. I’m in Los Angeles county out by Malibu, out by the beach.
Congratulations on the Smith / Kotzen album; it really shows off what both of you are capable of, doesn’t it?
Yeah. You know, going into it, it was interesting. We had to spend a little bit of time jamming together over the course of a few years here and there, so I had a pretty strong picture of Adrian’s taste, and what he sounded like, what his singing was like, and that sort of thing. So once we got in the room to write it was pretty easy, to be honest with you. There was a real, natural flow that we got going.
How did those jam sessions move from being just something to do for fun, to something that you thought might be worth pursuing seriously?
Well, the first song that we actually developed was the song ‘Running’, and I think at that point I thought; “alright, well there’s something going on here”. But you know, when we did ‘Scars’, which I think was the second number we put together, at that point I thought, you know, we’ve really got something kind of special. We had a vibe. It’s powerful to have two guys that can sing and compliment each other. I remember, one of the records that I liked growing up was that ‘Stormbringer’ [Deep Purple] record that had Coverdale singing on it and then Glenn Hughes singing as well, and it’s tricky to have two singers, but they did it so well back then, and I feel like with Adrian and I - not to put ourselves in their league by any means - but I think that we actually hit on something real nice, where our vocals kind of blend well together.
And of course, your guitar playing also work well together too.
That could have a disaster, you know, when you’ve got two guys that play lead. We were able to make room for each other, and I think we’ve been doing it long enough that we’re able to listen and respond, as opposed to feeling like we’re two young guys that are trying to represent ourselves. I don’t think we have that; it’s about the song, and what did we write, and let’s deliver it.
It’s been a long time since we heard Adrian Smith sing on an album; how were you able to coax him back into doing that?
Well, I didn’t have to do any coaxing of any kind. You know, out of the gate he wanted to sing, and like I said, we had those jam sessions, where he would sing quite a bit, so he wanted to express his song writing and his melodies, and what have you, so there was never anything else. No one had to convince anybody of anything; it just kind of was a given that we would do a co-lead vocal. That was the only thing that we actually planned. People ask sometimes; “how did you decide the direction?”, but we really didn’t decide anything, we didn’t plan anything, it just was more reactionary, and we wrote these songs, and that led us down this path, and dictated, actually, the sound of the record. It was just the compositions that we wrote, dictated the direction of the album.
Something that is interesting about the album is that you’ve never collaborated with another guitarist, and when Adrian does solo projects, he’s always been the sole guitarist too.
Well, that’s right. It’s a good point. You know, I have a long history of making records where I’m the only guitar player, whereas Adrian is part of Maiden, where there’s more than one guitar player. Now, I really noticed that some of his production instincts were really influenced by the fact that he’s had so many years playing with another guitar player. So, by example, I think his counterpoint, and his sense of melody is so strong. We have these songs like ‘Taking My Chances’, and in my mind I’d think; “okay, I think they’re finished now”, and he’d say; “wait, I’ve got one more idea”, and he’d come up with a great counterpoint kind of thing to go against what I did. That’s really powerful, and I have to assume that really comes out of that long history of playing in a band, and with other guitar players and that sort of thing.
Did you purposely avoid going for the guitar harmony thing, because it would be such an obvious route to go down?
Well no, we never had that conversation. I mean, there are a couple of lines here or there, and in and out of solos that got harmonised. I mean, there’s line that comes out of the solo where Adrian finished the solo in ‘Scars’; he kind of finishes it at an odd place, and I join him with a harmony part that comes in, so there’s subtleties; it’s not the obvious thing. I think that a lot of the harmony guitar stuff really comes out of a more traditional, metal / hard rock place, and somehow, this album doesn’t really come out that place. I think we’re more influenced by more of the blues side of things, and the more improvisational side of things, so, there’s a lot less of that. By the nature of the amount of improvisation that we have on these solos, things aren’t really worked out the way it would be if you harmonise something. In fact, this thing is, by nature of the music and the style and what we wrote, it wasn’t necessarily a deliberate thing we tried to avoid, but again it’s one of those things where the composition just dictated the production, and it just didn’t lead us into a heavy, dual-guitar harmony situation.
You mentioned the track ‘Running’, which is such a tuneful song with a real commercial hook.
Yeah, and it’s like that with all the songs. The thing for me about the record is, it’s just got such a personality. It’s not one of those records where every song kind of sounds similar; each song is its own personality, but then somehow the record has a flow, and it sounds consistent. It sounds like a single artist record; be it a band or a duo, which is it, a duo. So, I’m not sure how that even happens other than by saying we just kind of allowed our personality to drive us, per se. Again, it just comes back to the composition and what we wrote, and just kind of following that flow.
The album has goes from the soul of something like ‘Glory Road’ to ‘Solar Fire’, which has an almost AC/DC feel in places.
You know, ‘Solar Fire’ has an interesting story to it. That song was one that I was messing around with the riff, and I put it to a drum loop that I recorded, and I was singing, I guess you’d call phonetics. I didn’t have the lyrics, but I wanted to put a vocal down to just capture the idea, and so I was singing in my proper singing voice, and I was just kind of making up syllables, if you know what I mean, just to get the idea across. And then I played it for Adrian, and he said; “wow, it sounds like you’re saying ‘solar fire”. And I said to him; “wow, that’s a cool idea. I’ve ever heard of that before, what does that mean?” And then that led us into this conversation, and from that conversation about; “what is solar fire? How can we put that into a song?”, then we wrote the lyrics together.
That’s quite an unusual way for a song to come to fruition.
Although all these songs came together in different ways, that was a unique one because I kind of had that chorus there, and I played it for him and actually heard a title out of it, which was what I didn’t know; that’s what collaboration’s supposed to be. It’s like; “here, I’ve got this idea, and I’ve got a melody and a chord progression, but I don’t have a title”, and without a title, you can’t write lyrics, and you don’t have a song. So, that’s a perfect example of how you get these collaborations to work.
Another track that is a real highlight is ‘I Wanna Stay’, which really gives you both space to stretch out, musically.
You know, ‘I Wanna Stay’, it’s funny you bring that up, because that song, literally drove me crazy, and I even say in the lyric it drove me crazy! And the reasoning is, I had that melody going on and on in my head the entire time we were down in Turks and Caicos; I just couldn’t get that melody out of my head. Finally one night I went in the studio there, I just messed around, and I literally dropped that in there, that it was driving me crazy, and then from there I worked out those lyrics. But that was one of those songs that just wouldn’t leave me alone, and then finally, when you least expect it, it just comes together.
The closer ‘Til Tomorrow’ is a great example of you and Adrian bouncing off each other.
Yeah, that’s a great one for the guitar, and it’s like you said, we really are bouncing off of each other. It’s fun to do that. I don’t have that in my other configurations. Obviously, if I’m making a solo record, it’s all about me and what I’m doing. It’s nice to have a partner like that that I can work with at that level.
Well no, we never had that conversation. I mean, there are a couple of lines here or there, and in and out of solos that got harmonised. I mean, there’s line that comes out of the solo where Adrian finished the solo in ‘Scars’; he kind of finishes it at an odd place, and I join him with a harmony part that comes in, so there’s subtleties; it’s not the obvious thing. I think that a lot of the harmony guitar stuff really comes out of a more traditional, metal / hard rock place, and somehow, this album doesn’t really come out that place. I think we’re more influenced by more of the blues side of things, and the more improvisational side of things, so, there’s a lot less of that. By the nature of the amount of improvisation that we have on these solos, things aren’t really worked out the way it would be if you harmonise something. In fact, this thing is, by nature of the music and the style and what we wrote, it wasn’t necessarily a deliberate thing we tried to avoid, but again it’s one of those things where the composition just dictated the production, and it just didn’t lead us into a heavy, dual-guitar harmony situation.
You mentioned the track ‘Running’, which is such a tuneful song with a real commercial hook.
Yeah, and it’s like that with all the songs. The thing for me about the record is, it’s just got such a personality. It’s not one of those records where every song kind of sounds similar; each song is its own personality, but then somehow the record has a flow, and it sounds consistent. It sounds like a single artist record; be it a band or a duo, which is it, a duo. So, I’m not sure how that even happens other than by saying we just kind of allowed our personality to drive us, per se. Again, it just comes back to the composition and what we wrote, and just kind of following that flow.
The album has goes from the soul of something like ‘Glory Road’ to ‘Solar Fire’, which has an almost AC/DC feel in places.
You know, ‘Solar Fire’ has an interesting story to it. That song was one that I was messing around with the riff, and I put it to a drum loop that I recorded, and I was singing, I guess you’d call phonetics. I didn’t have the lyrics, but I wanted to put a vocal down to just capture the idea, and so I was singing in my proper singing voice, and I was just kind of making up syllables, if you know what I mean, just to get the idea across. And then I played it for Adrian, and he said; “wow, it sounds like you’re saying ‘solar fire”. And I said to him; “wow, that’s a cool idea. I’ve ever heard of that before, what does that mean?” And then that led us into this conversation, and from that conversation about; “what is solar fire? How can we put that into a song?”, then we wrote the lyrics together.
That’s quite an unusual way for a song to come to fruition.
Although all these songs came together in different ways, that was a unique one because I kind of had that chorus there, and I played it for him and actually heard a title out of it, which was what I didn’t know; that’s what collaboration’s supposed to be. It’s like; “here, I’ve got this idea, and I’ve got a melody and a chord progression, but I don’t have a title”, and without a title, you can’t write lyrics, and you don’t have a song. So, that’s a perfect example of how you get these collaborations to work.
Another track that is a real highlight is ‘I Wanna Stay’, which really gives you both space to stretch out, musically.
You know, ‘I Wanna Stay’, it’s funny you bring that up, because that song, literally drove me crazy, and I even say in the lyric it drove me crazy! And the reasoning is, I had that melody going on and on in my head the entire time we were down in Turks and Caicos; I just couldn’t get that melody out of my head. Finally one night I went in the studio there, I just messed around, and I literally dropped that in there, that it was driving me crazy, and then from there I worked out those lyrics. But that was one of those songs that just wouldn’t leave me alone, and then finally, when you least expect it, it just comes together.
The closer ‘Til Tomorrow’ is a great example of you and Adrian bouncing off each other.
Yeah, that’s a great one for the guitar, and it’s like you said, we really are bouncing off of each other. It’s fun to do that. I don’t have that in my other configurations. Obviously, if I’m making a solo record, it’s all about me and what I’m doing. It’s nice to have a partner like that that I can work with at that level.
What sort of gear did you use on the album?
Well, I’ve got my signature model Victory head [RK50] that I use. It’s a 100w head, and it’s a great amp, very versatile, and that particular one is only available in the limited run. It’s a limited edition amp, in a limited run. Then there’s another one that they sell that’s called the RK40 that’s actually more of a high gain amp, and between the two of them, that’s what I used. And then my guitars, I’ve got the Fender Telecaster signature model [Kotzen Telecaster BSB] that’s my main guitar, and I also have a signature model Strat that I use.
Do you still have the guitars that you’ve used throughout your history?
You know, I have most of them. I’ve got my Paul Reed Smith. Actually, I had sold that many years ago, and I traced it down and found the guy that had it, and I bought it back from him, and that Paul Reed Smith is from 1985, and it’s the 121st one made, so it’s a very special guitar. I’ve got my two Yamahas which were my main guitars; the SG2000, and the SG3000, and I’ve had those since I was 12 and 15. Then I’ve got my old Kramer that I used to play when I was a teenager; that was the first guitar that I acquired with a locking tremolo system. And then I’ve got two of the Ibanez Horror guitars.
Including the one pictured on the ‘Fever Dream’ album?
Right, yeah. I’ve got those, and then I’ve got another collection of guitars that were made by Ibanez under the name Starfield. They were like telecaster-type guitars, and that’s what I was playing in 1990, and then in ’91 I moved onto Fender. So, I still have most of those guitars. There’s a couple that I got rid of years ago. There was one Ibanez that has some cartoon drawings on it, I don’t have that anymore, and then I the first Ibanez that I actually bought before I had the endorsement, that Ibanez, I used on my first record [‘Richie Kotzen’, 1989] – all that tremolo stuff – that guitar, I don’t have. I haven’t had that in a long time. That guitar got messed up somehow, and I don’t remember whatever happened to it.
A lot of people’s introduction to your work would have been when ‘Dream of a New Day’ appeared on the soundtrack to Bill and Ted’s Bogus Journey in 1991.
Well, I’ll tell you, we had just done the ‘Fever Dream’ record, and the way that happened was my contract at that point was bought out by Interscope, which is a major label record company, and so they bought my contract and moved me to Los Angeles, and they decided to put ‘Dream of a New Day’ in the Bill and Ted soundtrack. Well, I had insisted, and I got my way, I said; “listen, it’s been four or five months, or six months since I recorded ‘Fever Dream’, I can sing much better now. Please let me re-sing ‘Dream of a New Day”. So, we went into the studio, and I actually re-sang the song, and re-played the bass guitar, and that’s the version that’s on the Bill and Ted soundtrack. So if you’re curious, you can listen; put them up back to back and you’ll notice the difference. It’s a totally different lead vocal and background vocals, as well as the bass guitar.
Well, I’ve got my signature model Victory head [RK50] that I use. It’s a 100w head, and it’s a great amp, very versatile, and that particular one is only available in the limited run. It’s a limited edition amp, in a limited run. Then there’s another one that they sell that’s called the RK40 that’s actually more of a high gain amp, and between the two of them, that’s what I used. And then my guitars, I’ve got the Fender Telecaster signature model [Kotzen Telecaster BSB] that’s my main guitar, and I also have a signature model Strat that I use.
Do you still have the guitars that you’ve used throughout your history?
You know, I have most of them. I’ve got my Paul Reed Smith. Actually, I had sold that many years ago, and I traced it down and found the guy that had it, and I bought it back from him, and that Paul Reed Smith is from 1985, and it’s the 121st one made, so it’s a very special guitar. I’ve got my two Yamahas which were my main guitars; the SG2000, and the SG3000, and I’ve had those since I was 12 and 15. Then I’ve got my old Kramer that I used to play when I was a teenager; that was the first guitar that I acquired with a locking tremolo system. And then I’ve got two of the Ibanez Horror guitars.
Including the one pictured on the ‘Fever Dream’ album?
Right, yeah. I’ve got those, and then I’ve got another collection of guitars that were made by Ibanez under the name Starfield. They were like telecaster-type guitars, and that’s what I was playing in 1990, and then in ’91 I moved onto Fender. So, I still have most of those guitars. There’s a couple that I got rid of years ago. There was one Ibanez that has some cartoon drawings on it, I don’t have that anymore, and then I the first Ibanez that I actually bought before I had the endorsement, that Ibanez, I used on my first record [‘Richie Kotzen’, 1989] – all that tremolo stuff – that guitar, I don’t have. I haven’t had that in a long time. That guitar got messed up somehow, and I don’t remember whatever happened to it.
A lot of people’s introduction to your work would have been when ‘Dream of a New Day’ appeared on the soundtrack to Bill and Ted’s Bogus Journey in 1991.
Well, I’ll tell you, we had just done the ‘Fever Dream’ record, and the way that happened was my contract at that point was bought out by Interscope, which is a major label record company, and so they bought my contract and moved me to Los Angeles, and they decided to put ‘Dream of a New Day’ in the Bill and Ted soundtrack. Well, I had insisted, and I got my way, I said; “listen, it’s been four or five months, or six months since I recorded ‘Fever Dream’, I can sing much better now. Please let me re-sing ‘Dream of a New Day”. So, we went into the studio, and I actually re-sang the song, and re-played the bass guitar, and that’s the version that’s on the Bill and Ted soundtrack. So if you’re curious, you can listen; put them up back to back and you’ll notice the difference. It’s a totally different lead vocal and background vocals, as well as the bass guitar.
That would be a great song for you and Adrian to do, if Smith / Kotzen get to do some live dates, wouldn’t it?
Oh yeah, we’ve got to figure that out. We’re talking about an approach for when we finally get on stage together. Obviously, there’s only nine songs on the record, so we have to make a long enough set, so we’ve got options. There’s a lot of things we can do. We haven’t really gotten into it yet because you know, we can’t really play anywhere, but once we know we can get out and play, we’ve got to figure all that stuff out.
Finally, I couldn’t let you go without asking; what’s next for the Winery Dogs?
Boy, you tell me. I just don’t know. We did a tour in 2019, and it was a nice time, we had a good time on the road, and we were talking about the idea of doing something again in the studio, the third record, and then the pandemic hit, so now I just don’t know. I mean, everybody asks, and I’m very positive about the idea of doing it, but I just don’t know what’s going to happen now. You know, we have the situation where we still don’t really know when we can tour, and the Winery Dogs are an interesting situation; we’re not going to just phone it in – we have to be in a room together and write together, and now with Mike {Portnoy] in Pennsylvania, and I live in California and Billy [Sheehan]’s in Tennessee, it’s not the easiest thing, logistically to bring it all together. We don’t want to send files back and forth, because that doesn’t really work for a band like us, you know; we need to be in the room. So, the only thing I can say is when we get into a position where the three of us can get in a room together and throw ideas around, that there will be a path at that point to a third album. Right now I’m focused on Smith / Kotzen, and this record didn’t even come out yet, so you know, one thing at a time. We’ll see!
Smith / Kotzen is released on 26th March 2021. Get it here.
Oh yeah, we’ve got to figure that out. We’re talking about an approach for when we finally get on stage together. Obviously, there’s only nine songs on the record, so we have to make a long enough set, so we’ve got options. There’s a lot of things we can do. We haven’t really gotten into it yet because you know, we can’t really play anywhere, but once we know we can get out and play, we’ve got to figure all that stuff out.
Finally, I couldn’t let you go without asking; what’s next for the Winery Dogs?
Boy, you tell me. I just don’t know. We did a tour in 2019, and it was a nice time, we had a good time on the road, and we were talking about the idea of doing something again in the studio, the third record, and then the pandemic hit, so now I just don’t know. I mean, everybody asks, and I’m very positive about the idea of doing it, but I just don’t know what’s going to happen now. You know, we have the situation where we still don’t really know when we can tour, and the Winery Dogs are an interesting situation; we’re not going to just phone it in – we have to be in a room together and write together, and now with Mike {Portnoy] in Pennsylvania, and I live in California and Billy [Sheehan]’s in Tennessee, it’s not the easiest thing, logistically to bring it all together. We don’t want to send files back and forth, because that doesn’t really work for a band like us, you know; we need to be in the room. So, the only thing I can say is when we get into a position where the three of us can get in a room together and throw ideas around, that there will be a path at that point to a third album. Right now I’m focused on Smith / Kotzen, and this record didn’t even come out yet, so you know, one thing at a time. We’ll see!
Smith / Kotzen is released on 26th March 2021. Get it here.
RSS Feed