Rising though the 1980s, Savatage were serious metal contenders until tragedy struck. Following the untimely passing of Criss Oliva in 1993, the Florida band soldiered on, regrouping and releasing a string of albums before the phenomenon of Trans Siberian Orchestra ended them, seemingly for good. Their return in 2025 then, is perhaps their most surprising turn yet. We joined bassist Johnny Lee Middleton and guitarist Chris Caffery for a chat at Hellfest about their comeback, and plans for the future. The unholy; Eamon O'Neill.
Photo: Adrian Hextall Mindhex Media.
Hi Chris and Johnny. First off, Welcome to Hellfest 2025; how is it to be here?
Chris: It's awesome. It's our first time, and we're just blown away at the infrastructure of the whole festival. The way it's run is very professional.
Savatage is the shock reunion of the year; how did you come to a decision to bring the band back?
Johnny: Well after Waken [Savatage played a one-off reunion show at Waken Open Air in 2015], we kind of made the decision we were going to put the band back out on the road, and, you know, the Trans Siberian Orchestra thing, it's always been going, and then we lost Paul [O'Neill]. Paul passed away, and that set everything back, and we weren't sure what was going to happen after that. So we got the TSO back together, and we got that show back on the road, and then it was ; "okay, let's do the Savatage thing". And then COVID hit, so we had another pushback, and then Jon [Oliva] had some health issues, and that was another setback, and we've got to the point now where it's like, it's time to do it, so here we are.
Savatage has quite a story. The band had real momentum in the early 1990s, and then grunge hit, and after that you had the tragic passing of Criss Oliva.
Johnny: Well, this band's been through all kinds of tragedies. You know, Criss was my best friend. I was the guy that got the knock on the door by the State Trooper, you know, so we've been through a lot, man, but the music that was created with Jon, Criss and Paul and the rest of us, is timeless.
Chris: It's special, and you realise that when you see these people that come to the shows and they'll single out how Savatage has changed their lives or saved their lives, and they've come to see us from, you know, Syria or wherever, all over the world. Paul had said to us a long time ago; "it's easy to write a song about a car and a girl, but it's not easy to write a song that can change someone's life", and I never really understood exactly how powerful that was until these people would come up to us and say that. There could be 55 or 60,000 people here watching, but there could be a song like 'Believe' that is like Zach [Stevens] and Jon singing one on one with the fans. It's very rare, you know, with like people like Freddie Mercury, when he would do that, and he would sing by himself [a cappella, and the fans would answer back], and there's a power in that.
Like Johnny said, this music that was created is really special. We're fortunate now, too, I mean, we lost Criss and we lost Paul, and we're fortunate to still have the six of us that were on the 'Dead Winter Dead' [1995] tour, and the 'The Wake of Magellan' [1997] tour; we're still here, and time is precious, so we have an opportunity to do this together. That's one of the things, I think, that is really pulling the fans together with us, because they see the emotions we have, and we know that Paul's gone and Criss is gone; I mean, it hits us really deep, and the fact that we're able to do this together? It would be really difficult to do this without these guys; it's like, we, us together though, we create a personal ball of energy that helps us relate to the fans and rise over the stuff that's really deep inside us from the people that aren't here.
'Edge of Thorns' [1993] was the final album with Chris, wasn't it?
Johnny; Yeah, that was the last one I got to do with Criss, and we did that all in the studio that we now own in Tampa. That's when Jon stepped down, and it was me and Criss against the world. We had a lot of doubters. When me and Criss took off, we formed our own corporation, our own everything, and we had a lot of doubters because Jon wasn't there. They were cynical that we got a new singer, and that, a lot of the time is the death of a band, and instead it was a new chapter, instead of the death. It turned into a new chapter, and good things were happening, and we had a great trajectory going. The band was very popular, more so than ever on American radio, and we were really onto something, and then, like I said, I got the knock on the door, and my whole life changed. Everybody's life changed, and then it just threw us into; "what are we going to do now?"
It brings back to what you were saying about the emotions in the band. I think any Savatage fan would know how deep that runs.
Johnny: Yeah, me and Criss were like brothers, man. He lived across the street from me. We were together all the time, and I still haven't got over that. That still hurts me, man. Like I said, this band's been through a lot of tragedy; drug abuse, fucking everything you name, we've been through it, and the music has got us through, and we've survived.
Around that time you brought Alex Skolnick into the fold; what was it like working with him?
Johnny: Well, Criss was a big fan of Alex. We did the Testament tour, and Criss was a really big fan of his. Jon played the rhythm guitars on the album, and when it came time to do in the leads, we asked Alex to step in, and he came in and he filled in when we needed him. Then we also brought him into the Trans Siberian Orchestra, and he worked with us for many years in that, and now he's back doing his thing with Testament, and I know he does a lot of jazz stuff too. It just seemed to be the right fit at the right time. The main reason is because Criss Oliva and him, they got along really good, and Criss really admired his playing, and Alex really admired Criss's playing too.
Chris: It's awesome. It's our first time, and we're just blown away at the infrastructure of the whole festival. The way it's run is very professional.
Savatage is the shock reunion of the year; how did you come to a decision to bring the band back?
Johnny: Well after Waken [Savatage played a one-off reunion show at Waken Open Air in 2015], we kind of made the decision we were going to put the band back out on the road, and, you know, the Trans Siberian Orchestra thing, it's always been going, and then we lost Paul [O'Neill]. Paul passed away, and that set everything back, and we weren't sure what was going to happen after that. So we got the TSO back together, and we got that show back on the road, and then it was ; "okay, let's do the Savatage thing". And then COVID hit, so we had another pushback, and then Jon [Oliva] had some health issues, and that was another setback, and we've got to the point now where it's like, it's time to do it, so here we are.
Savatage has quite a story. The band had real momentum in the early 1990s, and then grunge hit, and after that you had the tragic passing of Criss Oliva.
Johnny: Well, this band's been through all kinds of tragedies. You know, Criss was my best friend. I was the guy that got the knock on the door by the State Trooper, you know, so we've been through a lot, man, but the music that was created with Jon, Criss and Paul and the rest of us, is timeless.
Chris: It's special, and you realise that when you see these people that come to the shows and they'll single out how Savatage has changed their lives or saved their lives, and they've come to see us from, you know, Syria or wherever, all over the world. Paul had said to us a long time ago; "it's easy to write a song about a car and a girl, but it's not easy to write a song that can change someone's life", and I never really understood exactly how powerful that was until these people would come up to us and say that. There could be 55 or 60,000 people here watching, but there could be a song like 'Believe' that is like Zach [Stevens] and Jon singing one on one with the fans. It's very rare, you know, with like people like Freddie Mercury, when he would do that, and he would sing by himself [a cappella, and the fans would answer back], and there's a power in that.
Like Johnny said, this music that was created is really special. We're fortunate now, too, I mean, we lost Criss and we lost Paul, and we're fortunate to still have the six of us that were on the 'Dead Winter Dead' [1995] tour, and the 'The Wake of Magellan' [1997] tour; we're still here, and time is precious, so we have an opportunity to do this together. That's one of the things, I think, that is really pulling the fans together with us, because they see the emotions we have, and we know that Paul's gone and Criss is gone; I mean, it hits us really deep, and the fact that we're able to do this together? It would be really difficult to do this without these guys; it's like, we, us together though, we create a personal ball of energy that helps us relate to the fans and rise over the stuff that's really deep inside us from the people that aren't here.
'Edge of Thorns' [1993] was the final album with Chris, wasn't it?
Johnny; Yeah, that was the last one I got to do with Criss, and we did that all in the studio that we now own in Tampa. That's when Jon stepped down, and it was me and Criss against the world. We had a lot of doubters. When me and Criss took off, we formed our own corporation, our own everything, and we had a lot of doubters because Jon wasn't there. They were cynical that we got a new singer, and that, a lot of the time is the death of a band, and instead it was a new chapter, instead of the death. It turned into a new chapter, and good things were happening, and we had a great trajectory going. The band was very popular, more so than ever on American radio, and we were really onto something, and then, like I said, I got the knock on the door, and my whole life changed. Everybody's life changed, and then it just threw us into; "what are we going to do now?"
It brings back to what you were saying about the emotions in the band. I think any Savatage fan would know how deep that runs.
Johnny: Yeah, me and Criss were like brothers, man. He lived across the street from me. We were together all the time, and I still haven't got over that. That still hurts me, man. Like I said, this band's been through a lot of tragedy; drug abuse, fucking everything you name, we've been through it, and the music has got us through, and we've survived.
Around that time you brought Alex Skolnick into the fold; what was it like working with him?
Johnny: Well, Criss was a big fan of Alex. We did the Testament tour, and Criss was a really big fan of his. Jon played the rhythm guitars on the album, and when it came time to do in the leads, we asked Alex to step in, and he came in and he filled in when we needed him. Then we also brought him into the Trans Siberian Orchestra, and he worked with us for many years in that, and now he's back doing his thing with Testament, and I know he does a lot of jazz stuff too. It just seemed to be the right fit at the right time. The main reason is because Criss Oliva and him, they got along really good, and Criss really admired his playing, and Alex really admired Criss's playing too.
Touching on the Trans Siberian Orchestra, that was unbelievable, how it took on a life of itself; were you surprised when it went so big?
Johnny: Yeah. I mean, a DJ in Florida on a Mix 96 station, one of his interns gave him the song, and he spun it, and the next thing we know, we've got the most requested song in Tampa Bay.
Chris: It was funny, we were rehearsing for a Savatage tour, and Johnny came in the rehearsal room and he was like; "I just heard Savagage on Mix 96", and that was an adult contemporary station. Paul O'Neill always had the idea of doing something that, like the Trans Siberian Orchestra. I don't think he had the name; I never heard that name until we released the Trans Siberian Orchestra records, but he'd always tell me about how he wanted to do this band that had limitless creative possibilities, that could be one singer with one guitar player, or a giant orchestra playing any kind of music. And he wanted to incorporate stories in the music, to have what he was calling 'rock theatre'. And when that song was out and the opportunity was there, Atlantic Records said to Paul; "what are we going to do? This is a hit song"; that's when the light bulb went on, so we're going to start Trans Siberian Orchestra, because 'Christmas Eve and Other Stories' [1996] was recorded then, and as much as it surprised us, it never surprised him, because Paul was a visionary.
We were doing something with 'The Wake of Magellan', and I'm talking on the phone with Paul, and in the middle of conversation he goes; "now, when TSO headlines arenas...", and we hadn't even released the first record yet, and he's already told me his plan for how and when it was going to headline. So, of course, us ,and a lot of the rest of the world were surprised about it, but it never surprised Paul for one second, and that's just how he was.
How does it compare now, that you're getting back in the trenches again and playing the theatres with Savatage?
Johnny: I like the small rooms. You work your whole life to get into the playing arenas, but not two times a day! That's where we're at. I did fifty-four shows in forty-eight days. Chris has banded fifty-six in forty-eight days. That's a hard job.
Chris: We're using the same sound production in our ears, so sonically, it's the same as being on that giant stage, as far as what is going in, so it's not like you have more or less amps or that kind of situation, which is giving us the opportunity to play a little bit more focused to the fans. With TSO, you have ages eight to eighty in the audience, and people that like all different kinds of music; with this, we're generating the energy of a couple of thousand people, or these festivals where they're all metal bands, so it's a different way of projecting your energy. With TSO, you have your moments, and with the Savatage concert, the whole entire show is that moment.
And you're bringing it back to those people that were there in the early days, or have never seen Savatage.
Johnny: Yeah, now they're bringing their kids. But I like the small clubs. I like to sweat. Shepherd's Bush [in London] was perfect. It was packed. It was a little hot. It's just like where we started.
Chris: We get to move less because it's a smaller stage.
Johnny: It's just like the old days!
Chris: It's a little easier!
Johnny: Yeah. I mean, a DJ in Florida on a Mix 96 station, one of his interns gave him the song, and he spun it, and the next thing we know, we've got the most requested song in Tampa Bay.
Chris: It was funny, we were rehearsing for a Savatage tour, and Johnny came in the rehearsal room and he was like; "I just heard Savagage on Mix 96", and that was an adult contemporary station. Paul O'Neill always had the idea of doing something that, like the Trans Siberian Orchestra. I don't think he had the name; I never heard that name until we released the Trans Siberian Orchestra records, but he'd always tell me about how he wanted to do this band that had limitless creative possibilities, that could be one singer with one guitar player, or a giant orchestra playing any kind of music. And he wanted to incorporate stories in the music, to have what he was calling 'rock theatre'. And when that song was out and the opportunity was there, Atlantic Records said to Paul; "what are we going to do? This is a hit song"; that's when the light bulb went on, so we're going to start Trans Siberian Orchestra, because 'Christmas Eve and Other Stories' [1996] was recorded then, and as much as it surprised us, it never surprised him, because Paul was a visionary.
We were doing something with 'The Wake of Magellan', and I'm talking on the phone with Paul, and in the middle of conversation he goes; "now, when TSO headlines arenas...", and we hadn't even released the first record yet, and he's already told me his plan for how and when it was going to headline. So, of course, us ,and a lot of the rest of the world were surprised about it, but it never surprised Paul for one second, and that's just how he was.
How does it compare now, that you're getting back in the trenches again and playing the theatres with Savatage?
Johnny: I like the small rooms. You work your whole life to get into the playing arenas, but not two times a day! That's where we're at. I did fifty-four shows in forty-eight days. Chris has banded fifty-six in forty-eight days. That's a hard job.
Chris: We're using the same sound production in our ears, so sonically, it's the same as being on that giant stage, as far as what is going in, so it's not like you have more or less amps or that kind of situation, which is giving us the opportunity to play a little bit more focused to the fans. With TSO, you have ages eight to eighty in the audience, and people that like all different kinds of music; with this, we're generating the energy of a couple of thousand people, or these festivals where they're all metal bands, so it's a different way of projecting your energy. With TSO, you have your moments, and with the Savatage concert, the whole entire show is that moment.
And you're bringing it back to those people that were there in the early days, or have never seen Savatage.
Johnny: Yeah, now they're bringing their kids. But I like the small clubs. I like to sweat. Shepherd's Bush [in London] was perfect. It was packed. It was a little hot. It's just like where we started.
Chris: We get to move less because it's a smaller stage.
Johnny: It's just like the old days!
Chris: It's a little easier!
Savatage have had a long history, as we've discussed; but what are your top three Savatage albums?
Johnny: I would say, 'Edge of Thorns', because that's the last one I got to do with Criss, and then 'Hall of the Mountain King' [1987]. That album saved us. We lived on peanut butter jelly and pizza, and we spent every dime we had on the record, and four of us crammed in one little dirty hotel room! Nobody made any money on the recording of the record because we put all our money into it! So that one, and then I think 'Streets' [1991]. Those three records were... but then I can't forget about 'Dead Winter Dead' [1995]! *laughing*
Chris: It's hard! I mean, I always pick 'Mountain King' first because that was my first tour. I was a little kid on a road with one of the greatest heavy metal records of all time, period. And I am very fond of 'Gutter' ['Gutter Ballet', 1990] because it was my first record where I was in videos with the band, the first tour as a member of the band, and that record, to me, is always really special. But like Johnny, I love 'Edge of Thorns', So it's hard for me to pick. I love 'Dead Winter Dead'; it was the assembly of what is working right now, and that record changed all of our lives. So it's really hard to pick.
I mean, if I was to have the asterisk on the one that's really special to me, it's the 'Ghost in the Ruins' [Tribute to Criss Oliva, 1995] record, because that was one that I was able to go into the studio and listen to Criss that way one more time. We were trying to find a way to mix things, and if you listen to that record, my rhythm guitars are coming out of each ear, because we didn't want it to sound like a Van Halen record when we mixed him up the middle for his leads and there would be no rhythm. I had a chance to play with him again, so it was haunting to be in that studio and to hear that guitar and to play that music again, and to be on that record in a studio version. For me, of all those songs, it just has a really special place in my heart. He was so priceless on that album. He couldn't fix anything; his track was the only tracks we had. I had a chance to work with an Eddie Van Helen, and that for me, it was just so special.
His solo in 'Gutter Ballet' is just jaw-dropping.
Chris: Like I said, it was being able to play with him, plus like, I had a brother that I worked in the band with, and I think the business; a) I was young and stupid, b) the business was different; you didn't play in multiple bands back then, you know? And I lost those last years of person's life, and being able to be in the band and be on the 'Streets' record with these guys, you know, it meant a lot to me to be able to get back in there and play with him one more time because I owed so much to him. I still do. My career got to where it was because I met Paul, and Paul worked with these guys, and they created a position for me in one of the greatest bands ever.
Finally, the obvious question is, will there be a new Savatage album?
Johnny: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We've got, I don't know how many songs demoed out right now. Jon keeps writing more. It's gonna happen, we just don't have a timeline. You know, you get done with your record when you run out of time, or you run out of money; well, we own a recording studio, and so there goes your money problem, and we don't have a timeline, so we'll get it done when the time's right.
Johnny: I would say, 'Edge of Thorns', because that's the last one I got to do with Criss, and then 'Hall of the Mountain King' [1987]. That album saved us. We lived on peanut butter jelly and pizza, and we spent every dime we had on the record, and four of us crammed in one little dirty hotel room! Nobody made any money on the recording of the record because we put all our money into it! So that one, and then I think 'Streets' [1991]. Those three records were... but then I can't forget about 'Dead Winter Dead' [1995]! *laughing*
Chris: It's hard! I mean, I always pick 'Mountain King' first because that was my first tour. I was a little kid on a road with one of the greatest heavy metal records of all time, period. And I am very fond of 'Gutter' ['Gutter Ballet', 1990] because it was my first record where I was in videos with the band, the first tour as a member of the band, and that record, to me, is always really special. But like Johnny, I love 'Edge of Thorns', So it's hard for me to pick. I love 'Dead Winter Dead'; it was the assembly of what is working right now, and that record changed all of our lives. So it's really hard to pick.
I mean, if I was to have the asterisk on the one that's really special to me, it's the 'Ghost in the Ruins' [Tribute to Criss Oliva, 1995] record, because that was one that I was able to go into the studio and listen to Criss that way one more time. We were trying to find a way to mix things, and if you listen to that record, my rhythm guitars are coming out of each ear, because we didn't want it to sound like a Van Halen record when we mixed him up the middle for his leads and there would be no rhythm. I had a chance to play with him again, so it was haunting to be in that studio and to hear that guitar and to play that music again, and to be on that record in a studio version. For me, of all those songs, it just has a really special place in my heart. He was so priceless on that album. He couldn't fix anything; his track was the only tracks we had. I had a chance to work with an Eddie Van Helen, and that for me, it was just so special.
His solo in 'Gutter Ballet' is just jaw-dropping.
Chris: Like I said, it was being able to play with him, plus like, I had a brother that I worked in the band with, and I think the business; a) I was young and stupid, b) the business was different; you didn't play in multiple bands back then, you know? And I lost those last years of person's life, and being able to be in the band and be on the 'Streets' record with these guys, you know, it meant a lot to me to be able to get back in there and play with him one more time because I owed so much to him. I still do. My career got to where it was because I met Paul, and Paul worked with these guys, and they created a position for me in one of the greatest bands ever.
Finally, the obvious question is, will there be a new Savatage album?
Johnny: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We've got, I don't know how many songs demoed out right now. Jon keeps writing more. It's gonna happen, we just don't have a timeline. You know, you get done with your record when you run out of time, or you run out of money; well, we own a recording studio, and so there goes your money problem, and we don't have a timeline, so we'll get it done when the time's right.
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